we begin in the courtroom on day ten of testimony in the george zimmerman murder trial. right now we're hearing from a gym owner and personal trainer familiar with zimmerman's mma training. let's listen in. >> you had an opportunity to see mr. zimmerman shortly after the altercation with mr. martin, correct? >> yes. >> can you tell the jury when that was? >> i don't know the exact date, but i would say it was within a couple days after the incident. >> describe him, if you would. did you notice what he looked like? >> he had black eyes. his nose was scraped up. he had some bandages on a his head. that was the obvious physical bruising he had. he looked emotionally traumatized. >> have you seen that in fighters that you've worked with? >> i've seen that in people. generally not in fighters after, you know, they've been competing for a while.

a little bit different. he had the look of a human being who had been through an extremely traumatic experience and was traumatized from it. almost like a state of shock that was continuing. >> the -- did he have a conversation with you where he discussed shrimping and the recourse of this event? >> yes, he did. >> when was that? >> objection, hearsay. >> please approach. >> lisa bloom, let's talk to you about what's going on. i can see where thomas roberts was going. some of this testimony seems almost comical. this gym trainer said he was in to train for a year, yet he was terrible. yet another parade of character witnesses pretending to be fact

witnesses. >> some are saying that since george zimmerman used mma training three times a week, he should have used that instead of killing trayvon martin. this adds to the equation that george zimmerman was not particularly skilled in mma. on a scale of one to ten, this gym owner gives him a one. >> when you call somebody to the stand, you say s look, i'm this person's friend, immediately i would think the jury would have to say, okay, you're clearly biased, we're going to take you down a peg. then when a person comes up there and says, he was terrible, he was a one on a scale of one to ten, what are you supposed to make of that as a juror? >> a lot of the witnesses we've heard in this case have been friends and family members. there's always the potential for bias. i mean, this witness is coming across as somebody who has a very athletic background who's a professional in that area. obviously the jury will take that with the weight they think is appropriate. >> all right. let's go back to the testimony. >> i've happened to have had a meeting with one of my other

trainers that i saw. happened to be yesterday. had a very brief conversation with him. when i first mentioned what i was going to be coming to testify, you know, he didn't realize that this was the same person that we were referring to. >> judge, i'm going to object again. >> sustained. >> let me -- >> hold on one second. i was asking you for you to describe mr. zimmerman. i think you were going to give us a story about maybe how somebody else described him. that's been objected to and sustained is, which means you can't tell us what the other person said. if you can tell us in your words. >> he was -- and i really don't like to use this type of terminology. >> we've heard words that we normally don't use. >> soft. he's just physically soft. you know, he's not a -- he was

an overweight, large man when he came to us but physically soft. he was predominantly fat. not a lot of muscle. not a lot of strength. >> a moment, your honor. >> all right. let's take a moment and bring in the rest of our legal team today. patrick murphy, paul henderson, and seema. let me start with you having done criminal defense work. what is the strategy here in these witnesses and this testimony? >> the strategy here is to show -- with this witness, it's particularly funny as well that they're really just taking shots at george zimmerman's character, his strength, and showing that it was impossible that he was the aggressor. it was only probable that trayvon martin attacked george zimmerman. that's what's happening right here. >> all right. you know what, let's take a listen back in and see what's happening now.

>> i'm sorry? >> tell me the slogan of your gym, if you would. >> the slogan is learn without getting hit. >> never call it anything about being the most complete fight gym in the world? >> well, sometime -- we've got a rather large facility. some time ago, you know, we had set up on our website because there were really no facilities around who had full weight training facilities and full fight training facilities. we put it as the most complete fight gym in the world at that point. that was accurate. things have changed. now there are a lot of gyms that have followed suit to what i do. they've updated their facilities now to have weights and whatnot as well. >> speaking of other gyms, i understand mr. zimmerman was going to yours for, i guess, somewhere you said between october of 2010 and the end of 2011. he took a couple months off and then came back? >> basically. >> okay. do you know if at all he might

have been going any place else, whether that was another gym that you mentioned or just working out at home or working out at, for example, some apartment complexes or communities have fitness centers, that sort of thing. >> not to my knowledge. we've got a very unusually complete facility, and it makes it really easy. we kind of give a lot of leeway of access to the facility for the members. so he's got access to a place that would be unlike any place else that would be available to him. so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be going somewhere else, you know. he was a very loyal type of individual. so i don't foresee him going to some other facility. >> would you have encouraged him to work out sort of on his own? i mean, as simple as going for a run on his own or lifting weights at home or anything like that. >> generally, i encourage my students to come to as many training sessions as possible so they can have supervised instruction so that they're not

creating bad habits. >> would you tell him not to work out alone? >> i would tell him to come in for more training sessions at our facility. >> the weight the defendant lost was in the ballpark of 90 pounds. >> i don't have an exact measurement. when he first started he was between 250 and 260 pounds. he would have lost, you know, between 50 to 80 pounds. >> okay. and actually, i think you testified before that his body mass index was somewhere between 15 and 20% body fat. >> i don't have the exact amount because i didn't do a body fat analysis on him. but i would think that he probably had a little bit more body fat than that. >> okay. do you remember talking about somewhere between 16 and 20%? >> i remember hearing and looking at a deposition on that, and i saw the numbers on there. when i saw the numbers on there, it seemed a little odd to me because it seemed a little bit

low for him. >> you certainly don't deny that's what you said, right? >> i'm not arguing whether i said that or not. >> okay. i guess let's talk about the first blow advantage type of thing. the first blow can be a very good advantage in a combat situation. >> correct. >> and you would have taught, i guess, all of your students this fact. >> well, i'm not going to start teaching somebody about strategy if they don't have the base of fundamentals. >> would they have absorbed this or seen this or heard it talked about? any chance of that? >> is there a chance of that? sure. you can turn on the tv and figure some things out. that's not something that i'm going to teach a beginner as far as strategy goes if they don't have the basis of fundamentals. >> it's not a big advantage, though, if you don't execute it properly or well. >> well, it's not going to do anything for you if you don't do anything with it. >> could put you in a worse

position. >> potentially. >> leaves you open for a quick counterattack. >> potentially. >> as far as grappling itself goes, you said that was actually what you started the defendant in, right? >> correct. >> and i think you characterized it as sometimes when you're rolling around on the ground, a lot of things can happen to you. >> correct. >> scuffed up, marked, sometimes scraped. >> depending what you're rolling around on, absolutely. >> and you talked about some techniques, bridging and shrimping. those are designed to move you from an unfavorable position to a less unfavorable position. >> correct. >> they're designed to effect that change of position as quickly as you can do it. >> correct. >> because when you're grappling, that's actually a fairly physically exhausting situation. >> absolutely. >> and is that why they fight in, i guess, some -- we could

call it short rounds, but obviously you've been a professional. you know sometimes even a three-minute round can seem like forever. >> a one-minute round can seem like an eternity when you're not in condition for it. >> and so the goal of some of those techniques that we're taught, the shrimping, the bridging, is to take yourself from being as you put it in a -- perhaps if someone had you in a mounted situation, to be able to reverse that or at least get out of where you are. >> to get into a not quite as bad situation or reverse it. >> okay. and you said you also taught submission, arm locks, and that sort of thing. >> correct. >> those are also designed to be applied in a grappling scenario, even perhaps if you're not able to do much of anything else. in other words, when you can't strike, sometimes you could use a different type of hold. >> i'm not sure i understand what you're going at with this. >> okay. if you can't -- you mentioned the person on the bottom sometimes it's going to be hard to strike upward. >> correct. >> could you grab ahold of, for

example, an arm and apply one of the grappling holds in lieu of being able to punch? >> potentially, yes, depending on the position you're in. if you're in a mounted position, grabbing someone's arm to attempt to submit them from simply grabbing their arm is not a particularly practical thing. it's not going to work. >> it wouldn't work well, but that would be a grappling maneuver, the arm lock. >> well, the arm lock is not going to be applied. if you're on your back being mounted, you can't arm lock somebody from that position. >> so it wouldn't even be possible to do? >> you'd have to be extremely skilled, and you have to have -- there's a couple of obscure angles that could be implemented from, but you'd have to be extremely skilled to do it. >> would you say the defendant had the skill to do that? >> no way. >> and if he said he did it, you wouldn't believe him? >> no, absolutely not. as far as submitting somebody with an arm bar while he's being

mounted, no. >> okay. let's talk about striking for our little while, if we could. the punching. in the muay thai, you get into the kicking and the knees and elbows. punching you would teach a number of different strikes, right? the jab, the cross, the hook. >> upper cuts. >> all of those? >> yeah. >> you said he was working with a heavy bag. would you ever do the sparring mitts with someone? >> if they don't know how to control their body to throw a punch properly without hurting their wrists with or elbows on a heavy bag and shadow boxing, putting them on focus mitts is -- i'm not going to do that with them. >> is that a no? >> no. >> what weight were his gloves? >> he had bag gloves, which are going to be light as opposed to a 16-ounce boxing glove or sparring glove. generally an old-school bag glove is probably four to six ounces. >> okay. he would be -- you'd have him wrist wrapped and everything like that. >> correct. >> to help avoid hurting himself. >> correct. >> the idea is you punch hard

enough you should hurt the thing you're striking. >> well f you don't have good support on your hands and you hit hard, you can hurt your hands and your wrists. >> and when you would have him do these workouts for, i think you said, like the first hour was the call else thennics and cardio. the second hour would be the skill development portion. >> correct. >> so for this hour he's working on punching technique, he would be using all of those punches. >> what do you mean all those punches? >> would you be having him work on just jabs or -- >> at the beginning, he's going to work on just footwork and then structural integrity and how to hold and posture his body. then learn how to throw a jab. once he gets proficiency with the jab, we'll bring in a straight right hand. then we'll bring in a hook. once he starts to get proficient with those to where he's not hurting himself, we'll start putting combinations of those together. >> and just like with grappling, sitting in there trying to throw nothing but punches for an entire minute, that can get exhausting quick. >> without question.

>> you mention teaching positioning of hands and feet. you would feature the hands in the guarded position, right? >> as opposed to the hands down guarded position? >> let me put that better. you're supposed to guard your face so you can peek over and see your target but if you get hit -- >> and we are back here with some analysis of the ongoing testimony here. we're hearing about george zimmerman as a fighter or a weak fighter, someone who has been trained but not trained very well, although he lost some weight. paul, what do you make of what this testimony does for the case? >> well, they're trying to show that he was soft and he was weak and he was non-athletic. obviously, the prosecution is watching this and waiting for their opportunity to remind the jury -- because this is what i would be doing -- to remind them

that at the end of the day, regardless of all of this, he still had minor injuries. his bruises were insignificant. the point of that is that he was not in a life-threatening situation regardless of how out of shape he was. because at the end of the day, he had the loaded gun. he's the one that used the gun. he's the one that ended up shooting and killing someone on that evening. so -- but that's the foundation they're laying. that's why they're going over this fight scenario in detail with the jury. >> patrick, respond to that. because the entire point here is that the aggression of the individual defendant here in mr. zimmerman cuts both ways. if he's quote/unquote soft, he may have needed his gun for self-defense. he may have had a more justified argument, his lawyers would say, to shoot. on the other hand, if he's done all this training and is any good at fighting, it cuts the other way and says, well, maybe you never needed your gun even if you face some real threat.

>> right. as you mentioned, the whole prosecution's theory is that george zimmerman profiled trayvon martin. trayvon martin was a 17-year-old young man who had skittles and ice tea versus a 28-year-old mma fighter with a .9-millimeter weapon. the defense is saying, no, this guy is soft, but it's interesting because the defense witness here is really -- one, he's a little cocky. two, he's somewhat hostile. he's basically saying, well, this guy was soft, whatever. yet, george zimmerman trained three times a week for over a year, lost 50 to 80 pounds, was grappling. so to me, it's pretty interesting that the defense even called this guy in because they probably didn't even need to at this point. >> they're trying to sew whatever doubts they can. it's interesting. it's testimony that has at times been absurd. please stay with us. we're going to squeeze in a

quick break and continue with full coverage of the trial. . [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

♪ so wof the house?hink it's got a great kitchen, but did you see the school rating? oh, you're right. hey babe, i got to go. bye daddy! ...but what about when my parents visit? ok. i just love this one... and it's next to a park i love it i love it too. here's our new house... daddy! you're not just looking for a house. you're looking for a place for your life to happen. zillow happy birthday! it's a painting easel! the tide's coming in! this is my favorite one. it's upside down. oh, sorry. (woman vo) it takes him places he's always wanted to go. that's why we bought a subaru. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

msnbc's craig melvin is at the courthouse in sanford. craig, what's happening right now? >> right now, i think you probably just saw the trainer there wrapped up, the gym owner wrapped up. we're on a 15-minute recess. we expect to reconvene here at about 3:35. the defense at that point will be calling its ninth witness of the day. the witness that we just saw on the stand there, adam pollack, he was on the stand longer than

any other witness we've had today was on the stand, north of 50 minutes. it was also the first time today we saw the defense pursue what appears to be their next line of de defense, if you will. they devoted the bulk of the day to playing that 911 tape we've heard so many times to different people who said they were familiar with george zimmerman's voice and having each of those folks say that was, in fact, george zimmerman's voice. it was interesting, perhaps noteworthy that chris serino on cross-examination said when they played that tape for george zimmerman, george zimmerman said, that doesn't sound anything like me. so -- but again, what we just experienced there was the next line of defense. it'll be interesting to see where the defense goes at 3:35 when they come back from break. >> all right. craig melvin, thanks for that. let's go back to msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom. we've been dealing all day with the character issues. people coming up and saying who

george zimmerman was. now we have somebody basically testifying george zimmerman was a super wimp even though he took mma classes over and over and over. at what point would the state be able to open a door to talk about some of the other issues of george zimmerman's characters that have so far not been allowed in the battery against the cop, the domestic violence situation. how likely would it be for the state to find an avenue to bring in that sort of stuff? >> that's an outstanding question. so technically today these have not been character witnesses, even though anybody watching the trial would think that they were. they were testifying about a specific issue in the trial. we heard a lot of witnesses, heard the 911 call. they said, oh, yeah, that's george zimmerman. i know for sure that's george zimmerman. just as background they talked about their relationship with him, what a great guy he is, what a great friend. one of them talked about how he taught george zimmerman how to tie a windsor knot on a tie. we heard about that, but technically they weren't

character evidence. you're right. this is a great argument the prosecution can make. the defense went into this. it was character evidence. now we should be able to bring in the negative stuff about george zimmerman. so far the judge has not ruled that they can. >> lisa, this is patrick murphy. those six witnesses that the defense called up today that basically said this was not george zimmerman, they all had a personal relationship. what effect do you think that has on a jury? do you think they'll see through the system? >> absolutely. they said it is george zimmerman. we have seven defense witnesses, all of whom had a personal relationship with george zimmerman, saying that's him screaming on the 911 call for help. we have three prosecution witnesses, all of whom which had a relationship with trayvon martin, who say it's trayvon martin screaming out. we have one witness who says it sounds like a boy. that was a neighbor who didn't know either of the two men. zimmerman himself said to the police, it doesn't sound like me. the defense argued today, well, that's the typical thing people

say when they hear a recording of their voice. oh, that doesn't sound like me. that's their argument on that one. we know the screaming stops when the shot gets fired. we know that john goode, one of the witnesses, said he heard george zimmerman screaming for help. so how the jury sorts all of that out, i don't know. they may ultimately say, you know, this 911 call, we can't sort it out, we're going to put that piece of evidence aside. >> lisa, i want to bring you back to the character question. let's say the door is open for the prosecution to bring in the negative information and evidence about george zimmerman. doesn't that also have a reverberating effect? doesn't that then give the defense an opportunity to bring in whatever negative issues, information, evidence that they have that they say they have about trayvon martin? >> not necessarily. they can respond regarding zimmerman, but it doesn't necessarily mean they can bring in the negatives about trayvon martin. it's not an equal playing field with regard to talking about the victim and talking about the defendant. listen, the prosecution may not want to bring in these prior negatives about george

zimmerman, the assault on the police officer, the restraining order by the ex-fiance. i'll tell you why. if they win this case, they don't want an argument on appeal. that's a very touchy legal issue, bringing in prior bad acts. generally the prosecution, i think, is going to want to stay away from it. >> all right, lisa. stay right here. we have a lot of lawyers. i want to hear from everybody when we come back from this break whether they feel like the state has made their case. more about that and more from the george zimmerman trial in a moment. we'll also go live to the scene of that deadly plane crash in san francisco. there are new details on how it happened. that's after the break. ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker every day. ♪

♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm working every day. ♪ ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm saving all my pay. ♪ small businesses get up earlier and stay later. and to help all that hard work pay off, membership brings out millions of us on small business saturday and every day to make shopping small huge. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. there's a new way to fight litter box odor. introducing tidy cats with glade tough odor solutions. two trusted names, one amazing product.

because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet.

this afternoon new details are emerging about that horrific plane crash over the weekend. today we heard from first responders to asiana airlines flight 214. it crash landed at san francisco international, killing two people and injuries over 180

others, including 49 who have sustained serious injuries. >> it's so surreal. i feel like there was so much chaos going on and it was quiet. we spoke about this. there was -- it probably was very loud out there, but it was quiet. everybody was doing what they were trained to do. save lives. >> and just last hour ntsb investigators held a press conference. they gave some more information about the pilot who was at the helm. according to officials, the head pilot was experienced but only had about 43 hours of experience on a boeing 777. now, they plan to interview all four pilots today. nbc's tom costello is in san francisco, where ntsb officials just wrapped up their press conference. tom, what more did we learn about the cause of this terrible crash? >> reporter: i don't think we know a whole lot about the cause. i would caution us to remember that it's going to take weeks, months to come up with an actual

cause. one point of clarification. we don't know yet exactly who was at the controls. we believe the pilot who had only 43 hours in a 777 yet 10,000 hours of total experience, we believe he was at the controls, but the ntsb hasn't clarified that yet. we're not yet clear on whether he was the senior person in that cockpit or not. in other words, did the person who was training him have more total hours, have more seniority with the company, or did the pilot with fewer hours in the 777 have more seniority in the cockpit? you see, there's some nuance there that's important for us to understand. we don't have all the answers. the other thing that's important is this rate of descent is really alarming. when i've talked to veteran investigators and pilots over the last 24 hours, they're stunned that this plane, according to ntsb chairman, dropped from 134 knots at 500 feet, which is already below the target speed for landing, dropping down to 103 knots.

it's say stastonishing that pla hadn't yet stalled. we also know the stick shaker that the pilot holds between his knees was shaking at four seconds to tell them you're about to stall. but there doesn't appear to have been any other audio warnings from the automatic systems in the plane warning them that they were to slow. one reason for that is because when a pilot is approaching a runway, you automatically disengage the terrain avoidance awareness system. you do that because obviously you're about to meet the terrain. you're coming in for a landing. you disengage that so it doesn't created constant warnings that are not meaningful at all. the question is, were there any other audible warning systems that were missed, any other audible warning systems or visual warnings on the flight pop-up display system that were missed. those are still questions to be answered. you know, the bottom line about getting more about what happened in the cockpit, we won't have that today. they haven't even talked to the

crew members today. they're hoping to do that in the next 24 hours. it will be done in both english and korean. >> can you explain to us just a little bit from an aviation standpoint, what's the problem with going too slow? i would almost think that the slower you bring in a complex vehicle, be it a car or plane, what have you, the slower it is, the easier it would be to land. it seems that is not the case at all. what's the problem with going too slow here? >> reporter: you go to slow and you fall. you've got to have lift and speed. if you don't have lift and speed, those are the two crucial dynamics to flying. if you don't have that, then you're going to simply sink. obviously, they -- one of the most crucial mistakes anybody can make who's flying, one of the most fundamental things you learn in airmanship is maintain your speed. you don't let it drop. dropping speed can be death. so the question is, how could this cockpit full of at least two experienced pilots and maybe four, we don't know if the other two pilots were in the cockpit at the time of the crash. how could experienced pilots

allow something so fundamental to happen? how could you allow your speed to drop so far below the target speed of 137 knots? that's got a lot of people scratching their heads. were they distracted by something? were they talking to each other? did one presume that the other one was watching it and that one presume he was watching it? you see what the dynamics are involved here in the cockpit. that's what they're really going to be zeroing in on. >> all right. tom costello, thanks for that update. the chaos continues to unfold in egypt. that tops the news cycle this monday. at least 51 are now confirmed dead after a weekend of clashes between the military and protesters angry about the removal of president morsi. the white house has been watching the events closely but has not yet laid out a specific plan to address the turmoil. the u.k.'s guardian newspaper today released part two of its interview with nsa leaker edward snowden. remember, this interview was conducted before anyone ever knew who edward snowden even

was, so it doesn't respond to the backlash, it merely predicts it. right now snowden is still believed to be holed up in the moscow airport searching for a place for asylum. lawyers for bradley manning are asking a court martial judge to dismiss some of the charges against him, though it's unclear which charges are being argued. manning's trial is now in its sixth week. he's accused of aiding the enemy by is up -- supplying wikileaks. we're going to continue coverage of the george zimmerman trial. we'll bring it to you live in a minute.

uh-oh! guess what day it is?? guess what day it is! huh...anybody? julie! hey...guess what day it is?? ah come on, i know you can hear me. mike mike mike mike mike... what day is it mike? ha ha ha ha ha ha! leslie, guess what today is? it's hump day. whoot whoot! ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? i'd say happier than a camel on wednesday. hump day!!! yay!! get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more.

♪ ♪ (vo) purina cat chow. 50 years of feeding great relationships. what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'. welcome back. we are waiting for the george zimmerman trial to return from recess. let's check in with our legal team. we have patrick murphy, paul henderson, and seema ire. paul, i want to start with you

and broaden this out. people sometimes forget when they're looking at a criminal trial like this that probably isn't good enough. if a jury walks away thinking this guy probably committed second-degree murder or probably killed this person with no good reason and at least is eligible for manslaughter, that won't be good enough because even if they have any reasonable doubt, probably did it, but i reasonably doubt it for this or that reason, then their instructions at the end of this process will be to acquit. talk us through that high standard and why so many legal analysts have said that the prosecution, even at the conclusion of its case, had left quite a bit of reasonable doubt on the table. >> well, you haven't heard them connect the dots yet. they've laid the foundation. obviously, the big elephant in the room is how they're going to address the mens rea, which is the nefarious intent associated with zimmerman's state of mind at the time of this incident.

and obviously the overlay of the reasonable doubt is always the standard. so you know, one of the things that you say to a jury as a prosecutor is that that standard has not changed. every criminal defendant that you see held accountable is held to that same standard. and that doesn't mean that there is absolutely no doubt. it means that it is just beyond a reasonable doubt that that interpretation of the facts is what is likely happened in this case. so, you know, understanding from a trial perspective and understanding from a prosecutorial perspective, beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean that it is insurmountable. there is a challenge, and there is some difficulties in this situation where we have an incident that occurred and only two people really know what happened on that evening. one of them is dead. the other one, at the very least, is a liar, as has been proven by his testimony.

it's going to be interesting to me to see how the prosecution ties it all together to make his case and bring all of the circumstances evidence into focus to allow the jury to make the argument, to get beyond the reasonable doubt and hold zimmerman accountable. that's what i'm waiting for. that's what i want to see at the end when it comes time to hear a closing argument. >> seema, i have a question for you, and it involves tracy martin, trayvon martin's father. how likely is it that we could see the defense call tracy martin to the stand? if they were to do that, do you think that would be a good move for the defense? >> let's look at what tracy martin would testify to. tracy martin listened to the 911 call as we know from detective serino. tracy martin said, no, that's not trayvon martin. so your question is a terrific one. does the defense want to risk putting the father of the beloved victim on the stand and potentially facing a land mine like dr. bao was, saying

things -- tracy martin could say things in front of the jury, illicit emotions from the jury, sympathy from the jury that is unexpected. so the defense has to think about, has to weigh the options. right now we have in evidence testimony from dr. -- excuse me, detective serino that says tracy martin said it wasn't trayvon. play it safe. that's enough. lock it down. >> i agree. >> we're going to go back into the trial in a second. before we do, i want to whip around and see what with the attorneys who are here with us think about the state's case. has the prosecution made its case for murder two and for manslaughter? patrick, you first. >> sure. well, toure, first on the charge of second-degree murder. i don't feel like the prosecution has made that case. there is clearly a reasonable doubt whether or not zimmerman had the intent, the mens rea. but on the charge of manslaughter, the subsequent, the lesser charge or lesser crime here, i think that the prosecution when you look at all of their 39 witnesses that they

called to date, that they have proved that george zimmerman -- or i think they put the evidence out there that he could be convicted of that case. the fear is, though, is there one of the six jury members that have reasonable doubt? that's such a hard burden for the prosecution to meet. >> seema, what do you think? have they made the case? >> absolutely not. toure, i'm drowning in reasonable doubt at this point. forget about murder two. that shouldn't even go to the jury. if we're talking about manslaughter, i could name right now 20 reasonable doubts, if we had the time, but we don't. so the prosecution has proven one thing, that george zimmerman is not guilty. unfortunately, that's what the verdict is going to be. >> paul, what do you think? is it manslaughter? is it murder two? >> look, i mean, you're always optimistic and hopeful. in a case like this where there's so much sentiment behind whatever this verdict is going to be, i'm clearly rooting for the prosecution. i believe they've used every tool they had in their tool

shed. it really is just going to come down to how they're going to tie those pieces together and the pitch they make at the end in their closing to give to the jury. i'm hopeful and i'm optimistic that the jury understands and sees their argument and holds zimmerman accountable. if that gets them to murder two, then i will be clapping and celebrating for justice with the family. >> lisa bloom, what do you think? did the state make their case for murder two or for manslaughter? >> well, i'm not hoping for either side. i'm just following the evidence. although, i will say, paul henderson, i love it when you use words like mens rea. it just means intent. i actually think having followed the evidence thus far and we're still in the defense case and i still have an open mind for what they may put on, but i may surprise you by saying i think they put on a good case for murder two. it seems very clear to me that when zimmerman pulled the trigger, he intended to take the life of trayvon martin. so we have intent. the only question is whether it's self-defense or not. and the other part of murder two is ill will, hostility, hatred.

well, with you hear the words on the nonemergency police call, calling him an a-hole and f'ing punk, he clearly was very hostile to trayvon martin, a total stranger to him. just seeing him walking while black down the street, every time he called about a suspicious person in the neighborhood before this, it was about an african-american person. so i think the prosecution could put all of that together. they still have to rebut the self-defense. they do that by establishing all the inconsistencies in zimmerman's testimony. one of the biggest ones that jumps out at me is that zimmerman's gun was holstered inside his pants behind him, and yet he claims he was down on his back with trayvon martin on top of him and trayvon martin saw the gun and reached for the gun. so unless trayvon martin had x-ray vision and could see through his body to a gun that was behind him, i don't know how that works. so i think the prosecution has made a pretty good case for murder two. having said that, as i said, i'm still going to hear the defense out. >> lisa bloom, very interesting. not what i thought you would

say. of course, when you talk about george zimmerman shooting trayvon martin through the heart, clearly he's trying to kill him and not just get him off of him with a shot. we have more lawyers here than an ava party. arie is also an attorney. i want to hear your thoughts. has the prosecution made its case? >> look, i think when you look at these issues as a journalist or someone covering the case and you see all this information accr accrue, you want justice to be done, and you see what feels like a tremendous injustice in the killing of trayvon martin, an unarmed minor. as a lawyer, though, once we've now seen the end of the prosecution's argument, they still get to make their closiei statement, but they have to carry this burden across. as a lawyer, i don't see how they have met their burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was a deliberate killing with malice, a second-degree murder under florida law. i do not think they've carried that burden at all. that's my legal view of the

case. when i say that, what i mean by that is, have they proven it beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence presented to the jury? this jury does not know everything about mr. zimmerman's past and will not. so based on the evidence presented, i do not think they've connected those dots and defeated the doubts. the manslaughter goes to the justification and the murkiness of this conflict. that's something where i think there will be a lot more debate. that's a serious charge that carries up to 15 years. the last thing i'll say is the reason why so many people have followed this case closely is because we have a justice system that in many parts of america does not value the lives of black men and women in the same way that it values and investigates a similar or exactly the same situation for white americans. that's something we could spend a lot more time on. my view of that and my concern for that, however, does not alter the legal and precise judgment you have to make in a case like this where the prosecution hasn't met the burden to date. >> very interesting. reasonable people with ideas all

over the map. we'll be right back with more from the george zimmerman trial. t tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning. they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, like celebrex, increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions,

or stomach and intestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. don't take celebrex if you have bleeding in the stomach or intestine, or had an asthma attack, hives, other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. [ female announcer ] some people like to pretend a flood could never happen to them. and that their homeowners insurance protects them. [ thunder crashes ] it doesn't. stop pretending. only flood insurance covers floods. ♪ visit floodsmart.gov/pretend to learn your risk.

we're still following the george zimmerman trial. lisa, i want to bring you back in here. a question that i asked seema earlier, what do you think -- how likely is it that the defense will, one, call tracy martin, trayvon martin's father, and two, what would that mean? would you advise them to do

that? >> you know, that seema ire is a very good trial lawyer and i think she made a very good argument. you don't need to put him on now. you heard from two witnesses who told you that he heard the recording and he said, it's not my son. i mean, why put him on? maybe the defense will do that just for the sake of completeness, but it's really not necessary at this point. >> okay, we're going back to the trial. tracy martin has been called. >> do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony that you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? >> i dpop . >> you may proceed. >> good afternoon, sir. >> good afternoon. >> state your name, please.

>> tracy benjamin martin. >> and of course, you're trayvon martin's father? >> yes. >> you've been here for the testimony throughout the trial, correct? >> correct. >> including today, where we had a couple of officers testifying about an event where you had gone to meet investigator chris sbeeno at the sanford police department. >> yes. >> do you remember the event itself, having gone down there? >> yes. >> did you have a conversation with officer serino about why he wanted you down at the station? >> initially, we are going down to the police department to make sure that he had verified that trayvon had been identified. it couldn'ter it couldn'ter it couldn't serino didn't bring

me to the station, i actually went to the station myself. >> with miss green? >> correct. >> and at some point, you did go back to his office cubicle area and listened to some tapes, correct? >> correct. >> my understanding is that you'd listened to a number of tapes, one of which was the tape that we're identifying as the lauer 911 call, correct? >> yes. >> and he did play that for you? >> yes. >> and were you listening to it as he played it for you? >> yes. >> understand that it was difficult to listen to, it included the shot that ended your son's life, correct? >> yes. >> at the end of that tape, do you recall officer serino asking you whether or not you could identify your son's voice? >> not those exact words, but something to that nature, yes. >> do you recall the words, as best you can recall, that he used? >> as best as i recall, after he played the tape, he basically just said, do you recognize the

voice? >> and what was your response? >> my response was, simply, i didn't tell him that i didn't -- i didn't tell him, no, that wasn't trayvon, i kind of -- i think the chairs had wheels on them and i kind of pushed away from the table and just kind of shook my head and said, i can't tell. >> so your words were, "i can't tell." >> something to that effect. >> but i never said that, no, that wasn't my son's voice. >> you heard officer serino testify that you said no, correct? >> correct. >> and you heard officer singleton also testify that she was about eight or ten feet and she heard you say "no," or an indication that you acknowledged that it was not trayvon's voice, is that correct? >> before officer singleton even testified -- the first time officer singleton testified, that was the first time i've ever seen her.

i had no idea that she was even in the vicinity. >> you didn't notice her there, correct? >> no. >> but you heard her testify that she heard you, correct? >> yes, i heard her testify. i heard her testify to that, but i didn't see her in the room. >> did you ever say to anyone -- did you ever ask to hear the tape a second time? >> not at that -- not at that moment, no. >> did you ever tell anybody that you had listened to a cleaned up version of the tape and were then able to identify the voice on it? >> what do you mean, "cleaned up version"? >> i'm asking you, sir. >> to my knowledge, the tape that i listened to is the same tape that's circulating. that's the only tape i knew about. i have no knowledge of a cleaned up version. >> so the question then is, did you ever tell anybody, your attorney or anybody else -- >> i never told anyone that i listened to a cleaned up version of the tape. >> okay. or an enhanced version? >> i have no knowledge of an

enhanced version. >> did you ever tell sabrina fulton, your ex-wife, that you had listened to the tape at officer serino's desk. >> i hadn't told her, no. >> was there any reason why you didn't give her that information? >> there was a lot of stuff going on. we had just buried our son. a lot of emotions and, you know, you just don't think of every little detail that you've, through. obviously, it was a tragic and still is a tragic time for us. so just to answer your question, did i tell miss fulton that i listened to the tape, no, i didn't. >> now, you were at the mayor's office when the tape was played for the entire family, correct? >> correct. >> and you were there as well, listening to the tape? >> yes. >> did you ever take an

opportunity to tell miss fulton or any of the other family members, before the tape was played, what they were going to hear? >> no, i didn't. >> is there any reason why you didn't advise them of that? >> i'm sure they were aware of what we were doing at the mayor's office, so there was no reason for me to confirm the fact that we were there to listen to the tape. >> and was it at that time, in the room with everybody else, when -- what did you say about the tape when you listened to it that time in the mayor's office? >> what do you mean, what did i say? >> did you acknowledge anything about the tape to anybody? >> after listening -- after listening to the tape, for maybe 20 times, i said it was -- i knew that it was trayvon's voice.

i didn't direct that towards any family members. as a matter of fact, i think the family members had started. lea leaving the room. it was too much for them. they couldn't take it. and i just decided to sit there and listen to it. >> had you listened to the tape between the time that officer serino played it for you on about the 28th of february and about the 16th of march, when you heard it in the mayor's office? >> no. i listened to it and detective serino's cubicle it and then again in the mayor's office. >> no time in between? >> no. >> can i have a moment, your honor? >> yes, you may.

>> thank you, your honor, no more questions. >> thank you, cross? >> mr. martin, even at this time, is it hard for you to believe that your son is not on earth or living? >> it's very difficult to believe that trayvon's not living. as i said over and over, he was my best friend in life and to have him gone is a tragedy. >> okay. you were asked two areas that i want to cover with you that mr. omara asked you about. the 911 call that you heard or the calls, the recordings that you heard at spd or sanford police department. you remember going there? >> yes. >> now, in terms of the context,